Astronaut Sally Journey, mission specialist on STS-7, displays management panels from the pilot’s chair on the Flight Deck. Floating in entrance of her is a flight procedures pocket book. Credit score: NASA
At one level, Sally Journey was arguably probably the most well-known lady on the earth. She flew two missions for NASA, together with the one which made her the primary American lady in area. She gave lots of of interviews, and has appeared in numerous books, on commemorative stamps, even on Sesame Avenue. She has a Barbie doll in her likeness. However when it got here to her private life, she was close-lipped. It was solely with the publication of her obituary that the world realized she had a decades-long romantic relationship with one other lady, Tam O’Shaughnessy. Journey handed away from pancreatic most cancers in 2012, three years earlier than the U.S. Supreme Courtroom affirmed homosexual marriage as a nationwide proper.
However a brand new documentary, Sally, directed by Cristina Costantini, makes clear that authorized distinctions weren’t solely — or even perhaps largely — in charge for Journey’s reticence. Narrated largely by her accomplice, O’Shaughnessy, the movie explores Journey’s profession, for the primary time filling in a minimum of some lacking items of the lady who was so remarkably well-known, but additionally so devoted to conserving herself to herself, even from her household and closest mates.
Sally premiered on the Sundance Movie Competition in January of this 12 months, profitable the Alfred P. Sloan Characteristic Movie Prize. Will probably be obtainable to most people on June 16 on Nationwide Geographic and begins streaming on Disney+ and Hulu June 17. You possibly can watch the trailer here.
Astronomy was in a position to meet up with O’Shaughnessy and Costantini earlier than the movie’s broad launch. The interview beneath has been edited for size and readability.
KH: One of many largest themes on this movie is simply how intensely non-public Sally was about her life. A few of that was clearly for skilled causes, however the movie signifies that quite a lot of it gave the impression to be intrinsic to her character and upbringing. How exhausting is it to inform a narrative a few lady who was so averse to sharing herself, not solely with the general public, however even along with her internal circle?
Tam: Sally was a conundrum. And Cristina would agree with me. As a result of on one hand, she was completely open and she or he was a really sincere particular person. And by open, I imply that we invited one another to all of our college occasions. She got here with me; I went along with her. So she was by no means frightened about what individuals thought. She didn’t suppose that method. However she simply wouldn’t say the phrases, “Come meet my accomplice.” She simply couldn’t do it.
And her mother and father, particularly her mom, and Bear, her sister, are as progressive and easygoing as could be, and Bear is homosexual. Nevertheless it was simply unbelievable [that she couldn’t say it out loud].
However I feel Cristina can inform higher how troublesome it was to attempt to make a movie the place you simply don’t have very a lot intimate or private info from the individual that you’re attempting to inform the story about.
Cristina: Yeah. When somebody involves see a documentary, they wish to see their central topic. They wish to have them naked all and clarify precisely why they did precisely what they did. And I simply don’t suppose Sally ever would be capable of give that or did give that.
I feel the identical factor that made Sally such a terrific astronaut — this potential to compartmentalize and transfer together with the issues that she didn’t wish to take into consideration — in all probability made her powerful to be in a relationship with. And it additionally in all probability means she’ll stay a conundrum in some methods until the top of time. Or she was simply Sally, and I feel what Bear says on the finish [of the film] actually captures it: “We will let Sally be Sally.”
She’s an advanced particular person — like the remainder of us — and I don’t suppose the general public will ever get precisely what they need from her, to elucidate all of what she was considering. That’s by no means going to occur.
And I feel the beauty of a documentary is you possibly can type of say that. I feel within the narrative model of this script individuals would assign that means to each single factor that she did. However I don’t know if we’ll ever know [why she made some choices]. I don’t know if Sally knew a few of these solutions.
I by no means bought to fulfill her. Nevertheless it’s been such a terrific privilege in my life to hang around with all of the individuals she frolicked with as a result of they’re all so cool. I imply, [Lauren Cioffi], who produced this movie, and I say on a regular basis, “Thank God Sally surrounded herself with such cool individuals.” As a result of it meant the previous few years of our lives have been such a pleasure to be immersed along with her mates and her household.
And I’ll say, in our makes an attempt to elucidate why Sally was the best way she is, we did that interview with Joyce Journey [Sally’s mother]. And at first after we completed the interview, we had been like, “Properly, we bought nothing.” We bought nothing that’s usable. Nevertheless it seems that truly displaying how closed off Joyce is is a window into why Sally was the best way she is.
KH: It actually is a superb second. She sits down for an interview, will get all mic’d up, simply to inform you that fundamental questions on her daughter are none of your online business. For one thing that actually says nothing, it does appear to elucidate quite a bit about Sally.
Tam: Bear additionally says — and I don’t suppose she says it within the movie — however the best way Bear describes Sally, is that in a method she was a quite simple particular person. She was complicated however she was additionally quite simple. She had her passions: sports activities and physics and science schooling, and she or he principally had the identical mates her complete life. She was a really easy particular person.
KH: Tam, the world modified so quickly, particularly proper across the time Sally handed away, when it comes to how acceptable it was to be publicly queer. If she had been nonetheless alive right now, do you suppose she could be open to popping out like this? Is it a distinction in how prepared you’re to speak about these matters in comparison with her, or do you suppose Sally would have gotten right here too, given how various things are right now?
Tam: Good query. I feel the very first thing to recollect is that our group has been combating for many years and many years and possibly longer than that for human rights, for the suitable to be who we’re. Sally bought sick in 2011 and “Don’t ask, don’t inform” was nonetheless the legislation of the land. Marriage equality didn’t occur till 2015. So in a method it was simply beginning to speed up.
The American public went from within the ’60s, 2% of individuals thought gays ought to have rights to 70% right now, so possibly when Sally handed it was 55 or 60% or one thing. [A Gallup poll from 2011 states that Americans supported gay marriage 50% to 48%.] So it was shifting in an excellent route. And I do suppose it’s true that if Sally and I had stayed in academia I feel it will have been simpler for her to be extra open.
However I additionally suppose that it was simply in opposition to her fundamental nature. She didn’t speak about her emotions fairly often or for very lengthy. I used to be rather more open. I imply, as quickly as I spotted I used to be drawn to ladies I used to be really happy with it. I informed my mom, informed my sisters … so we had been simply completely different individuals. We grew up very completely different. My household mentioned “I really like you” on a regular basis, had been at all times hugging. Joyce Journey, not a lot.
So I’m undecided. I type of have this sense that Sally would have stayed Sally. However she in all probability would have been somewhat looser. Perhaps she would have informed her mother and Bear. Who is aware of?
KH: For me, one of the shifting moments of the movie was [astronaut] Mike Mullane’s interview on the finish. I actually appreciated his candor earlier within the movie, not figuring out the place it was going. Ladies in science and in lots of different industries have been seemed down on by their male friends for a very long time, so it was disagreeable however unsurprising to listen to his views on Sally and different ladies within the astronaut corps early on. However listening to his turnabout, and the letter that he wrote you, Tam, was actually highly effective. I’m questioning how that exact interview happened.
Cristina: Oftentimes while you’re making a movie in regards to the previous, no one needs to take duty for being the unhealthy man. To say, “I used to be the sexist” or “I used to be the racist.” Or it’s very uncommon. So whereas we’d speak to lots of people who would say sexism and racism existed on the time at NASA, only a few individuals would say, “I used to be the issue.”
And I feel it’s extremely courageous of Mike to do this. He didn’t have to do this within the public sphere. He didn’t must say that he was the issue and that it was actual and that he is aware of it was actual as a result of he had these ideas and he carried these immense biases that Sally needed to combat via.
I feel the movie is about a lot of completely different sorts of bravery, and Mike’s bravery is one which needs to be celebrated, particularly now in 2025. It feels more and more uncommon for individuals to apologize or say that they bought it flawed or for individuals to wish to enhance.
He says it’s his Catholic guilt, and that he has this upbringing of repenting his complete life. However I beloved Mike’s admission, and his was the one one which I can discover. That’s the straightforward reply: Mike’s the one one we may discover who would say, “Sure, I’m the issue.”
After which after we realized that he wrote that stunning observe to you, Tam, [after Ride’s death], I feel that’s after we actually determined we’ve to go get this on digicam.
As a result of there have been 35 individuals in that class, and Mike was the one one who would say that. And he’s simply very plainspoken, a terrific storyteller, doesn’t draw back from issues. We’re so fortunate that he agreed to sit down down with us. I feel that’s a scene that hits lots of people as a result of it’s so uncommon to see individuals apologize in that method.
KH: One of many different eye-opening interview moments was with Kathryn Sullivan. She alleges that Sally tripped a circuit breaker on her throughout a coaching train. Sally was clearly a really pushed particular person, so does that jibe with what you knew of her in any other case?
Cristina: I feel it actually relies on who you ask. Kathryn noticed it as sabotage. I feel Bear sees it as Sally teasing somebody, however everybody that I’ve talked to sees that another way. I’m curious the way you see that, Tam?
Tam: After I first noticed it within the movie, I used to be simply type of stunned. It didn’t sound like one thing that Sally would do. I actually favored that Kathy gave numerous situations for what may have occurred — though it did appear to be she leaned in direction of sabotage. However I bear in mind Sally speaking about her highschool days and simply how imply she might be to a few of her academics. You understand, if she didn’t respect a trainer, she could be rolling her eyes, making others within the class giggle and no matter.
You understand, she went to NASA when she was fairly darn younger, 27, and possibly she hadn’t gotten over that infantile section of hers from highschool. So I don’t know. The Sally I knew after we turned romantic wouldn’t take the time to do one thing like that, however who is aware of?
KH: I used to be actually intrigued by the timeline. Sally spent a few years coaching to be an astronaut however her two missions had been ‘83 and ‘84. The Challenger catastrophe — which the movie says was an enormous think about her leaving NASA — was January of ‘86. Do you suppose Sally regretted how brief her time was, and was Challenger her motive for leaving?
Tam: You understand, I feel Sally at all times thought that NASA was going to be short-term. She at all times needed to be a physics professor at a college. You’re proper that the Challenger catastrophe actually harm her. She couldn’t consider that a few of her mates and the management, the oldsters that she revered, who had been type of her heroes, needed to cowl up what really occurred. Or they didn’t wish to settle for that it was human error and that they made a deadly determination.
However the one motive Sally actually needed to go to NASA was to fly in area. As soon as Challenger occurred, she knew it will take years to get better. They needed to change the tradition. A lot needed to occur with Congress and all the things. So she simply realized, “Properly, I’m going to have to attend too lengthy.” She didn’t wish to work at NASA. That was by no means her aim. You understand, her husband, Steve, and most of the ladies and men in her class stayed at NASA for many years they usually beloved it. However that was by no means Sally. She at all times needed extra freedom and to grow to be a professor.
Cristina: She’s solely actually an astronaut for 9 years, and I feel there are in all probability 10 different movies that might be made about Sally and different components of her life. However she was an educator at coronary heart. And you need to bear in mind there wasn’t a possibility for girls to fly into area [when Sally was in school]. So this was not the type of trajectory she had set out for herself till she examine it “whereas consuming eggs,” as Tam would say, within the eating corridor that day. So she’s a physicist that bought to go to area and alter historical past however I feel she was very glad being a physicist. That was her core id proper, Tam?
Tam: That’s proper, and that’s what she considered herself: “I’m a theoretical physicist.” And he or she was extraordinarily happy with it. However I feel she additionally realized that attaining that dream of being the primary American lady in area would give her a ton of alternatives to do good work that she could be involved in. And it turned out to be true.
KH: So after NASA she was a professor for a very long time. And you then guys, Tam, began the tutorial firm Sally Journey Science. How did that come about?
Tam: So it was type of a sluggish development. I’m a biology particular person and she or he was a physicist, however we beloved speaking about science and we additionally favored writing about it. So we began writing younger grownup science books, however we tried to make them actually enjoyable and attention-grabbing, like Isaac Asimov when he wrote his youngsters books.
After which we began studying and noticing so many articles in newspapers and magazines about how poorly American girls and boys do in math and science and we simply couldn’t perceive why that was true. So we began digging into the explanations and it’s largely cultural. Textbooks sometimes have Albert Einstein, possibly they’ve Marie Curie however there’s 1,000,000 ladies doing science and scientists work in groups. They don’t work by themselves in somewhat lab with a white coat on and a pocket protector all by themselves. The picture of scientists was all flawed.
So we determined that possibly we may do one thing about it. And I feel it’s a kind of instances the place being naive is an effective factor. None of us — there have been 5 founders — knew something about enterprise. We didn’t know tips on how to begin an organization. Sally, due to her superstar, bought to fulfill simply fantastic those who helped information us, angel traders and those who had been sensible in advertising and enterprise.
Actually, the unique identify of the corporate was Imaginary Traces. We beloved it. It’s a really romantic identify, you realize, imaginary strains between women and men, girls and boys, nations, all that. However considered one of our traders mentioned, “Sally. What are you guys doing? It takes hundreds of thousands and hundreds of thousands of {dollars} to construct a model. You’ve a model, use it!”
So we modified the identify to Sally Journey Science after two years. However subsequent 12 months’s our twenty fifth anniversary so it’s fairly darn cool.
KH: Cristina, you’ve talked about being a science nerd and Sally being a hero of yours, so are you able to speak about how this mission got here collectively? The way you got here to crew up with Tam to inform this story?
Cristina: Tam goes to be so sick of this! Tam’s heard this story 4,000 occasions, so don’t kill me!
I used to be wanting on the pins I had from science gala’s once I was again house in Milwaukee for a movie pageant, and I’ve somewhat blue Sally Journey Science pin. I don’t know the place or how I bought it, however I might have been 14 on the time.
As a result of I used to be a science honest nerd, I used to be a science child, I beloved science. And I believed I needed to do this, so I studied behavioral science, after which I turned involved in people and storytelling later.
However once I was a child, in third and fourth grade is once I was actually in my Sally obsession. After I was in third grade, I bear in mind our trainer requested us to place our heroes on the skin of the elementary faculty and so I painted Sally as a result of she was my hero, but it surely was the ’90s in Milwaukee. So she’s subsequent to Brett Favre and Michael Jordan. And it’s nonetheless there right now.
So yeah. I did ebook stories on Sally, I simply beloved Sally. After which when she handed away in 2012 and I realized with the remainder of the world that Tam existed they usually had this 27-year-long romance. that’s once I actually began considering, “Wow, NASA was barely prepared for girls, how would this have performed out on the time?”
So I began fascinated with it then but it surely actually wasn’t till a number of years in the past that I began pursuing it and I realized in a short time this manufacturing firm known as Story Syndicate had a take care of Tam. They’d gone to Nationwide Geographic and Nationwide Geographic type of made this marriage between all of us, and it’s been implausible. We spent the previous few years making the movie and premiered at Sundance in January and it goes on the platform in a number of days, so it’s been an unimaginable experience. Pun not supposed.
It appeared pretty noncontroversial after we began making it and now it’s just like the world, 2025, has modified. Nevertheless it makes it extra well timed than ever. I feel this movie is for anybody who’s ever needed to conceal a part of themselves to be the place they wish to be and that’s an expertise that in 2025 is extra related than it’s ever been. I’m proud that it’s popping out this 12 months.
